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In response to a question posed to me by Heartbrokepicker.... 


Heartbrokepicker asked me this on someone else's question....I wanted to address it, but I felt it needed it's own space so hence, this blog....

Spaz. I just have to wonder if there is anybody out there anymore that knows how to keep a marriage together. This couple here are split because of work and losing or never being in touch with one another. What the heck is it all about anymore? What about all these marriage councelors that say things like "Soul mates are not perfect for each other. Soul mates love each other with all their imperfections. Soul mates love each other no matter what". I think that divorce should be outlawed unless physical or emotional abuse is the cause and counceling should have to be mandatory in all states in order to get divorced. Its like. Oh Gee. We goofed. Sorry but see you later. Nothing personal. Somebody has to have a better plan. 

HBP - I do hear the pain in your post - I hear the pain in most of your posts actually. My heart goes out to you.

There are millions of marital "success stories" mine being one of them - but the reason you don't hear about them is because they are off being happily married - they have no reason to come to a message board to extol their joy. They are gathered out with other people, in equal success stories, while those of you who it didn't work out for, are also gathered together to share....unfortunately it's pain you have in common. 

No one marries with the intent to divorce. The vows that were taken, although for some this is hard to believe, weren't just them lying through their pearly whites. They meant every word at the time. The thing is, if your marriage is going to fail, it was going to the second you exchanged "I do's" you just didn't know it yet. 

I agree with mandatory counseling, but not before divorce - by then it's too late - the damage has already been done - no, counseling should be mandatory before you are allowed to say "I DO". 

I know you are still stuck on me saying how your marriage was doomed from when it first started so let me elaborate....

You go into marriage with the problems that are going to eventually break you, if they aren’t dealt with correctly & effectively from the get go. For a lot of couples, too many actually, red flags are practically slapping them in the face but for some reason, they choose to ignore them…since I’m not the type to do that I’m admittedly clueless as to why anyone would - other than the age old saying “love is blind”.  

People bring insecurities, addictions, unresolved past loves, fear of confrontation, anger issues, bad credit, poor money management “skills“, overly frugal money management “skills”, selfishness, too giving to the point of draining themselves emotionally, poor communication skills, secrets….insert more here as I could go on all day….into a marriage. Sometimes it is well known but ignored (red flag) sometimes, and the worst of it, well hidden only to rear it’s ugly head later. 

Far too many people gauge readiness to marry on feelings, and do not address the practical part of it. They go into it with the unrealistic expectation that love is enough. It isn’t. 

Before you marry, in order for it to work, you have got to be able to talk about the sticky stuff…money, religion, sex, politics, family, children, expectations, deal breakers, porn, insecurities, needs, you even have to talk about how you talk about stuff. 

You have to have survived a couple of arguments without resentment before getting married. You have to know how to argue effectively, mind you I said argue, not fight. They are two very different things. If you never argued before you married, how in the world do you know what to expect? Could your future spouse be an insult hurling beast, or someone who shuts down completely at the mere raise in tone? 

Most importantly, can you live with that for the rest of your life? Can you see yourself happy in the next 10 minutes? 10 months? 10 years? Did you honestly look that far into it before you got married? Really? 

And don’t get me started on those people that marry expecting things to change once there is a marriage certificate. They may as well of had Santa Clause officiating and the Easter Bunny as the ring bearer. 

Now I’m not a believer in “soul mates” - I think that terminology brings about unrealistic expectations - but statements like you question, minus the “soul mates” and substituting “happily married couples” are true. 

No one is a perfect match. Perfection does not exist. People who are put on pedestals are bound to get knocked off of them. Compromise does exist though - and the couples that make it are the ones who went into their marriage knowing all the gory fault details of the other along with all the great stuff, and are ok with it. They have honestly weighed the pros and cons and chose to embrace differences and not challenge or push to change them. They didn’t ignore them, they addressed them, dealt with it - and came to terms with their partner as a whole. 

Bad times happen, it’s life - it’s messy. Married couples who enter into their life together who have a strong foundation, when things happen, bind together to make it through, those who have a weak foundation, start laying blame, blame turns to resentment, resentment turns to apathy…it’s easier to blame than to deal. Also due to the boom in social networking sites and electronic communication, it’s easier to talk to a stranger than your own spouse…leading to the inevitable…a perfect stranger is going to be a lot more understanding than your spouse will ever be 100% of the time because they are never told the whole truth. 

The other key to a healthy lasting marriage, is CONTINUED communication, assumptions can never be made on what your partner, thinks, feels, sees, hears, etc…every day some sort of “marital maintenance” needs to happen - from a simple hug and kiss to a conversation about an issue (there is ALWAYS going to be something). Far too many people end up on auto pilot and think everything is just fine, just because there isn’t a fight about something brewing. They exist between disagreements that never truly get resolved. 

Most people who are getting divorced, once the raw emotion isn’t ruling the show, if they sit down and really analyze their relationship they can figure out where it took it’s turn for the worst. However recognizing it instead of preventing it in the first place, doesn’t lend to being resentful of the spouse that just can’t live like that anymore and doesn’t want to try….they have the right to divorce. Marriage shouldn’t feel like a prison to one or both of the people in it - that isn’t a marriage - and you shouldn’t be forced to stay somewhere you don’t want to. 





by spaznskitz  7745 Posts 

Posted on 6/5/2009 3:39 PM
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Comments for "In response to a question posed to me by Heartbrokepicker...."  (72) (You must be logged in to answer)




Spaz,

You are very condescending and more often than not it's uncalled for.  I think the problem lies in the fact that you can't relate to anything any of us are going through because you've never gone through it.  Your reaction to people on here who express emotion is a one size fits all tough love approach that comes off as you thinking your better than the person you're criticizing and it just doesn't work because everybody is different. 

Divorce is an emotional thing, and that's OK.  People have been hurt and are angry, and that's OK.  People want to vent, and that's OK.  What's not OK is having these natural and - in most caes - harmless reactions to a terrible happening in someones life subjected to insensitive and condescending behavior.

I'm sorry but it's wrong.  I don't understand why your comments aren't limited to the legal area of the site.  That's your expertise.  The other areas, where people are just expressing the trials and tribulations of their divorces, is the expertise of the ones who are going and have gone through it. And that's not you.  It doesn't matter how many divorce cases you've handled or how close you've gotten to your clients. Unless you are going or have gone through it, you can't relate.
by Steve315   43 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 10:50 PM
0





I will agree that my marriage was probably doomed from the start. These next few statement are not meant to pick on my wife. 17 years age difference. Her mom has been married 3 times. Her father is going on his 6th marriage. Her grand parents on her fathers side weren't stable either. The grandmother left the father alone with the kids and never looked back. The woman he married later on in years divorced him and he still lived there until he died while she went off and slept with other men. My wifes other grandmother complained her entire life about how miserable she was being married to her husband. So I cant exactly say shes seen a lot of stability or positive results when it comes to marriages. My mother was married twice. First time to a very abusive sick individual at the age of 13. She later met my father and according to him, it was either marry her or she would go to prison. Dont ask for an explanation, but it is the truth. There was a lot of crazy shit that went on in my life but my parents somehow stuck with it. So I guess thats where I come in with my not wanting to give up on my marriage. My upcoming divorce is because we both didn't know how to make it work. I still love my wife. I tell my kids to be proud of their mom because she had to make a very hard decision that many people think is the wrong choice. I finally have an idea of what my wife needs in life. I also know she holds a lot of resentment towards me for things that were beyond my control. I know how beautiful she can be inside. She even admits she still loves me. But she doesn't believe in us anymore. I'm moving back into the house for financial reasons. I'm hoping in the upcoming months from what I have read and heard from my constant searches on relationships, that I can win her heart back again. Why. There are a bunch of other women that are interested in me right now. I know what I had with my wife and I know what we can have. But we cant have anything if we both dont try to make it wor
by Heartbrokepicker   418 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 10:45 PM
0





Spaz, While I believe your motives are solid and heart in the right place for posting this, I have to tell you that I feel a few of your viewpoints are extremely flawed.

First off, I disagree with this statement - "if your marriage is going to fail, it was going to the second you exchanged 'I do's' you just didn't know it yet." You mentioned a lot of things that need to be addressed before marriage and I agree with them but here is a story about a former colleague of mine. He and his wife were happily married for more than 25 years. She needed to have a type of surgery that sent her hormones out of whack. Immediately after the surgery, she wanted to divorce him and that was it. Who she was as a person totally changed from that point in time. Now, was was the problems going into that marriage that totally broke them? She was healthy going in. My point is there can be serious mental alterating occurences during a marriage that can change the outcome of that marriage, ones that were not there going in

Secondly, there are so many marriages in the world - each with a unique dynamic - that it's off base to make a blanket statement that it's too late to go to counseling before divorce. Sure, "the damage has already been done" but in many cases it's fixable. In others, the damage may be beyond repair. My point is that it's not always too late.

Now, on a more personal level, I can't take anything you say on marriage counseling at face value. You're a lawyer. If every marriage was saved, you'd be out of business and forced to specialize in another area of the law. You have a vested interest in couples not reconciling. I also wouldn't take much of what a marriage counselor has to say into account. He or she has a vested interest in the marriages being saved.

by Steve315   43 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 10:34 PM
0





I believe you've been insulting enough thanks.

I did not disregard HBP. I wasn't going to bring him into our disagreement. You assume, I haven't read his posts. I have. I gave you my reference so as not to be accused of plagarism. As a college grad, I'm sure you are familiar with the concept. As well to give a true and documented study of my point. I could bring more, but you were so rude concerning them, I won't bother.

I have the ability to read quite well and could even follow most of your post. (tongue firmly in cheek) I even read it numerous times just to make sure I was not misunderstanding.

Yes, it was directed to him, but this is a public forum and each of us have a responsibility to remember that. Others read this as well. If HBP got something for this, I am happy for him.

I did not do this to prove you wrong. I did this to bring up the point that you were too general for my liking.

As I have no idea of your schooling, nor do you of mine. You know what assuming gets you.

I also stand by my statements.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck and reads like some psychological study... well I guess I'm wrong. I guess I'll go play with my jacks and let the big people talk.
by krislyn   102 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 10:33 PM
0





I think nowadays people tend to be more selfish.  A lot more of the "immediate gratification" thinking.  If they don't immediately get what they want, they want out.  The selfish part comes in when they don't consider what that will do to their partner, their kids.

People change and if you've been in a long term marriage, both the husband and wife have changed.  Priorities change. 

Exmp: You can get together in your 20's, have kids, great career(s), have an ideal marriage...fast forward 25 years, the man/woman has a mid-life crisis, cheats to prove something to themselves, wants to revert back to their 20's,  starts acting differently, the spouse confronts, argument ensues then it's "I want a divorce" because the mid-lifer wants to run from the responsibility regardless of what happens to their spouse/kids.

I don't know what my point was.  Just adding my two cents in I guess!
by lifeinpurgatory   1830 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 10:25 PM
0





Actually, yeah, I could be (more condescending) if I wanted to be...hey, you asked. =)


Once again, third time's a charm, right? I'll break it down further...

This was a response to Heartbrokepicker - he put it on someone else's question, it was asked to me specificalIy,  wanted to give it it's due. I can't stand D360's e-mail feature, I wasn't going to take over someone else's question, and the wall doesn't have enough space - so it went to the area where I had free reign - my blog area. It was my personal response to his personal story/question - that was clear from the getgo from the very title of the blog.

I've read his posts, and taking his running theme and questions, his personal angst, his marital troubles - what I wrote is what I wanted him to hear - me to him. This was not a lecture on the state of marriage/divorce as a whole...what I wrote related to HIS story....and many others, but HIS story specifically. I was giving him things to think about as it related to what happened in HIS marital breakdown.

 

You disregarded the numerous times I mentioned HBP specifically - it became your quest to prove me to not necessarily wrong, but apparently you decided that my answer to one person needed to be written in a manner that was better suited for classroom experience - as if there would be a test on it later. Heck, you even gave me a chapter to read.

I stand by my comments about being doomed from the start - and I'm not going to rewrite my extensive explanation as to what I meant by it to satisfy your misunderstanding unless HBP himself doesn't find what my meaning is as it relates to him.

Lastly, I wasn't writing as a "psychologist" I was writing as a friend...and when it comes to it, I probably at this point have as much educational experience as you do in the field, if not possibly more, in that you have no idea what my actual educational background is...but you had to make sure I knew yours.

by spaznskitz   7745 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 10:12 PM
0





First of all let me say thank you all for you attempt to make me feel better (sincerely so there is no confusion). I dont know of many people that are prepared for marriage before they go into it. I do know people that have fought hard to save their marriages and have been successful. That is my arguement regarding giving up. Marriages can be saved and made to be better if people would just believe. Marriage to many people is an unrealistic institution and for some, they should be institutionalized (joke). Some inference here is that we just say "oh well" "you want to leave. No problem. Go in peace. I'm cool with that." Unrealistic. Its part of the caring process. Admittedly some people that are like me tend to think more with our hearts than with our head. We are very emotional people. But if we weren't then people would only marry because of the convenience like arranged marriages. I read one of Mort Fertels books. I agree with a lot of what he has to say. Too many people today just want out. They dont tell the other person that they are having problems with the marriage until it is too late. They dont have to correct that mistake. Instead they can just say "I want out". Doesn't matter how it will affect you or the life that you lead or the children that you brought into this world. People like Fertel feel that love can be rekindled because there was a reason they got married in the first place. Others feel that it is simply a case of feelings. Its unrealistic to think a marriage will last just on feelings alone. However the impact on kids and society in general behooves people to try and stay married once they have made that choice. Otherwise, what is the point? Why bother to get married? Just shack up and after you get tired of things or they arent to your liking, you can leave and the courts cant force you to stay. Toss a coin to see who gets the kids. Oh yeah. Kids are resilient.
by Heartbrokepicker   418 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 10:03 PM
0





Spaz, could you be more condescending, sweetheart? Had you actually read my first response I was expounding on the key points you were making using my silly student knowledge. My only problem with your 'blog' was making assumptions on all individuals. It's a shame you have to deal with divorce in your profession. But I dislike making assumptions, that's my personal flaw, I guess.Why is someone pointing out that we can evolve hurtful? I would be still in the pits of hell had I not realized that point about myself. I went through the exact same things he has. The pain. The wondering why I should even bother. That's exactly what I got from your blog. That marriage is something I shouldn't even bother with, because it will just end in divorce if me or my husband have issues earlier in life. That is dangerous talk. That was my only point. It is a big deal when you inform people that our marriages were doomed to failure from the moment we said 'I do.' How was that helpful? How does that not hurt people who are already hurting? Having gone through it myself, I find that statement cruel. I did everything I could to fight for my marriage, and refuse to blame my childhood and that of my ex's for my divorce.  Of course this is only the opinion of some student of psychology and a divorcee. As for my 'psychology' degree and your putting it into quotes? Again condescending.  I don't need you to contact my professor, but thanks so much for the offer. I did not post a comment to this to get into a pissing match with you. I comment on posts where I have something constructive to say, about things I have gone through. Your whole blog read like a psychological study on how marriages get screwed up. So don't get angry when I bring psychology into it. Counciling can and has helped millions repair their marriage.

If I ever need legal advice I know who to come to...but when it comes to psychological issues in I will go to a psychologist.
by krislyn   102 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 9:10 PM
0





Krislyn, I'm a graduate level psychologist, former member APA.

I'm with Spaz on this one.  And believe me, we don't always agree.  I knew a lot, I had pre-marriage counseling, I thought I was adequately prepared for all the trials and tribulations life could throw at me.  And here I am, working in a whole different field (I let my license lapse when I had kids), hurting and wishing I had a friend like Spaz that I could learn from. 

Good luck with your classes!


by Iam   480 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 8:21 PM
2





Lenn -

edit it to say "after a time it becomes" unproductive anger....

 

bear in mind I was typing to you as children were coming home from school baby was climbing on me, I'm amazed I actually didn't typo like I normally do muchless get  acomplete thought out =)

 

Anger is an important state of recovery, that is for sure, I was specifically talking about resentment and anger as it applies to when someone assumes their spouse just gave up and didn't try. Angry that when they begged for a 2nd chance they were turned down - THAT anger, is, under any circumstance, unproductive - nobody has to do something just because you want them to - married or not, and since they are an individual, one's definition of trying will be different than their spouse....and you can't expect someone to do things the way you assume you would if the roles were reversed.

by spaznskitz   7745 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 8:18 PM
0





Krislyn -

Sweetheart - do not assume what I do and do not have experince with. The mere suggestion that I only see the "bad end of marriage" is so far from the truth it's laughable. 

Plenty cut out when the going get tough, but there are millions who do not. You apparently missed where I made that point very clear at the very beginng of what I posted, again, to HBP.

Ahh getting your "psychology" degree - that explains a lot - You still don't get it - you are not in class and this is not some sort of case study on the ending of marriages asking for a debate - this was a long personal answer to a hurting man to give him some sort of direction for his feelings - who the hell cares how "broad" it is. His marriage is ending - he's in pain - I was TRYING (no thanks to you now) to NOT focus on how people are able to "evolve" and make it work for a reason. Thank you so much for feeling the need to just drive that point home to satify your student status. Shall I send this to your professor for credits?

Save the argument for your class...if there comes a time when I'm looking for some sort of dissection of a thought, I'll be sure to get in contact with you.

 

 

by spaznskitz   7745 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 8:06 PM
15





"You walk into a marriage not truly knowing the person you are with, and not having the tools to cope with the challenges - your marriage fails. Period. The divorce docket in any local family court is all the "basis of fact" I need to draw that conclusion."

That is much too broadbased in my opinion. I appreciate where you have your basis from, but seeing as how you only see the bad end of marriage, you are not being objective. The science of psychology is filled with hundreds of studies that argue your point. I would give some examples but apparently you do not want any. People are continuously developing, until the day they die. Every new period in a person's life has stages. From adjustments, to being more competent to meeting challenges, to fully able to deal with new challenges they are faced with including all aspects of marriage. From being a newlywed, to deciding where Christmas will be held, to banding together and tackling problems that come up. It is up to the individual on how to deal with these issues. Plenty cut out when the going get tough, but there are millions who do not. They develop themselves further and grow.

Yes, we all bring preconceived notions into our marriages, depending on family background, personality, resilience, vulnerabilities etc. Everything we do in life can be traced back to our childhood. I'm not arguing with that. But just as those years molded us, we also have the ability to chose how much they will control us.

oh, and also what I've learned from being married for over 20 years....

Spatz, I was married for fifteen. I know as well as anyone what makes a good marriage and what makes a bad one.

" there is a huge difference between "book smart" and "street smart"...
Thankfully I have both. Having lived through what you, yourself, admitted you have not. And going to college for my degree in psychology. 

by krislyn   102 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 6:46 PM
0





I get that.  I'm just not sure it is unproductive anger.  Unless someone wrote their own vows, there was likely an "as long as we both shall live" component that wasn't followed by the parenthetical "or until one of us doesn't feel like it anymore."  Ultimately, most of us go into marriage believing and counting on that, so divorce represents a major betrayal of trust.  I think anger is productive, which is why it is part of the normal grieving process. 

Getting stuck in anger isn't productive, and resentment is completely toxic.  From what I've observed, the longer a divorce stretches on, the longer a person remains stuck in the anger-phase of grief, and the more likely resentment is.

But of course I'm writing this because I feel a lot of anger right now.  There was a lot of bullshit this last year and I just don't see how I can recover from it if I don't feel what is natural for me to feel.  But then, my goal is to feel it in small, contained doses and then be done with it someday.
by lenn   2653 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 6:30 PM
0





Sure -

HBP, and others on here, hold a lot of anger towards their stbx's for filing for divorce instead of "trying"....and even more for not giving it another chance when they asked for it - it's unproductive anger.

They are looking at from the only perspective they have, their own, and one can't assume their stbx didn't "try" just because what they want isn't happening. It's really easy to point fingers after the fact instead of ensuring beforehand that your relationship was strong enough to weather any storm.

You can't resent someone forever for doing the opposite of what you want, even when it is something that cuts so close to the heart as a divorce - no matter what your stbx is an individual - and they have a right to find happiness, and if it isn't with you - that is something you, eventually, have to accept. (sooner rather than later when kids are involved)

by spaznskitz   7745 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 5:41 PM
0





Spaz, I am curious about this line though-- "However recognizing it instead of preventing it in the first place, doesn’t lend to being resentful of the spouse that just can’t live like that anymore and doesn’t want to try..."

Could you please state that another way?
by lenn   2653 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 5:25 PM
0





oh, and also what I've learned from being married for over 20 years....
by spaznskitz   7745 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 5:24 PM
0





Well, I for one do agree with that broad-based conclusion.  Everything that kills a marriage can be traced to a psychological characteristic that was present the day a couple met.

Psychologists (and everyone else) may be lost in the subtleties of human nature as they search for a comprehensive theory of successful relationships, but I have yet to meet one who wouldn't agree with the point Spaz made--all the elements that drove us towards divorce were right there in the very beginning.
by lenn   2653 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 5:23 PM
0





Krislyn  - you obviously didn't get the point of the blog. First off, it was mainly to put HBP heart & mind at ease...if I was looking to teach a class on the subject of course I would go into more detail - but this is a blog - not a textbook, and it is a heartfelt answer to a fellow members plea for some sort of understanding.

there is a huge difference between "book smart" and "street smart"....

It's also just my opinion based on the THOUSANDS of divorces I've handled over the years...

You walk into a marriage not truly knowing the person you are with, and not having the tools to cope with the challenges - your marriage fails. Period. The divorce docket in any local family court is all the "basis of fact" I need to draw that conclusion.

by spaznskitz   7745 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 5:23 PM
3





While your blog has some points, I believe it is full of broad-based conclusions. There are many reasons marriages fail, and many reasons marriages succeed. To broadly state that  "The thing is, if your marriage is going to fail, it was going to the second you exchanged "I do's" you just didn't know it yet."  has little basis in fact. There are too many variables in each individual person. Psychologists have spent years compiling data on the subject and they still can't make the conclusions that you just stated.


The post below is directly taken from my psychology 202 class text book. Adult Development, Boyd & Bee. pg. 93-94. Taken from Lifespan Development. Boyd & Bee
by krislyn   102 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 5:07 PM
0





The most compelling theory of romantic love comes from Robert Sternberg, who argues that love has three key components: (1) intimacy, which and connectedness; (2) passion, which includes a feeling of intense longing for union with the other person, including sexual union; and (3) commitment to a particular other, often over a long period of time (Sternberg, 1987).When these three components are combined in all possible ways, you end up with the seven subvarieties of love includes feelings that promote closeness Sternberg’s theory suggests that the characteristics of the emotional bond that holds a couple together influence the unique pattern of interaction that develops in each intimate relationship.How a couple manage conflict is also an important predictor of relationship quality. Drawing on a large body of research, psychologists have identified three quite different types of stable, or enduring, marriages (Gottman, 1994b). Validating couples have disagreements, but the disagreements rarely escalate. Partners express mutual respect, even when they disagree, and listen well to each other. Volatile couples squabble a lot, disagree,
and don’t listen to each other very well when they argue. But they still have more positive than negative encounters,showing high levels of laughter and affection. Avoidant couples, called “conflict minimizers,” don’t try to persuade each other; they simply agree to disagree, without apparent rancor, a pattern sometimes described as “devitalized.” Similarly, psychologists find two types of unsuccessful marriages. Like volatile couples, hostile/engaged couples,have frequent hot arguments, but they lack the balancing effect of humor and affection. Hostile/detached couples fight
regularly (although the arguments tend to be brief), rarely look at each other, and lack affection and support. In both unsuccessful types, the ratio of negative to positive encounters gets out of balance, and the marriage spirals downward toward dissolution. 
by krislyn   102 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 4:45 PM
0





".too giving to the point of draining themselves emotionally"

Yes, ex is sick but I did my part in giving and giving....no excuse for it.  My love for him was blind. The signs were there.

Great post Spaz!
by vlady   2123 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 4:07 PM
0





Good post, thanks for sharing. I also agree with counseling before marriage!
by kdb   3175 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 4:05 PM
0







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