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In response to a question posed to me by Heartbrokepicker.... 


Heartbrokepicker asked me this on someone else's question....I wanted to address it, but I felt it needed it's own space so hence, this blog....

Spaz. I just have to wonder if there is anybody out there anymore that knows how to keep a marriage together. This couple here are split because of work and losing or never being in touch with one another. What the heck is it all about anymore? What about all these marriage councelors that say things like "Soul mates are not perfect for each other. Soul mates love each other with all their imperfections. Soul mates love each other no matter what". I think that divorce should be outlawed unless physical or emotional abuse is the cause and counceling should have to be mandatory in all states in order to get divorced. Its like. Oh Gee. We goofed. Sorry but see you later. Nothing personal. Somebody has to have a better plan. 

HBP - I do hear the pain in your post - I hear the pain in most of your posts actually. My heart goes out to you.

There are millions of marital "success stories" mine being one of them - but the reason you don't hear about them is because they are off being happily married - they have no reason to come to a message board to extol their joy. They are gathered out with other people, in equal success stories, while those of you who it didn't work out for, are also gathered together to share....unfortunately it's pain you have in common. 

No one marries with the intent to divorce. The vows that were taken, although for some this is hard to believe, weren't just them lying through their pearly whites. They meant every word at the time. The thing is, if your marriage is going to fail, it was going to the second you exchanged "I do's" you just didn't know it yet. 

I agree with mandatory counseling, but not before divorce - by then it's too late - the damage has already been done - no, counseling should be mandatory before you are allowed to say "I DO". 

I know you are still stuck on me saying how your marriage was doomed from when it first started so let me elaborate....

You go into marriage with the problems that are going to eventually break you, if they aren’t dealt with correctly & effectively from the get go. For a lot of couples, too many actually, red flags are practically slapping them in the face but for some reason, they choose to ignore them…since I’m not the type to do that I’m admittedly clueless as to why anyone would - other than the age old saying “love is blind”.  

People bring insecurities, addictions, unresolved past loves, fear of confrontation, anger issues, bad credit, poor money management “skills“, overly frugal money management “skills”, selfishness, too giving to the point of draining themselves emotionally, poor communication skills, secrets….insert more here as I could go on all day….into a marriage. Sometimes it is well known but ignored (red flag) sometimes, and the worst of it, well hidden only to rear it’s ugly head later. 

Far too many people gauge readiness to marry on feelings, and do not address the practical part of it. They go into it with the unrealistic expectation that love is enough. It isn’t. 

Before you marry, in order for it to work, you have got to be able to talk about the sticky stuff…money, religion, sex, politics, family, children, expectations, deal breakers, porn, insecurities, needs, you even have to talk about how you talk about stuff. 

You have to have survived a couple of arguments without resentment before getting married. You have to know how to argue effectively, mind you I said argue, not fight. They are two very different things. If you never argued before you married, how in the world do you know what to expect? Could your future spouse be an insult hurling beast, or someone who shuts down completely at the mere raise in tone? 

Most importantly, can you live with that for the rest of your life? Can you see yourself happy in the next 10 minutes? 10 months? 10 years? Did you honestly look that far into it before you got married? Really? 

And don’t get me started on those people that marry expecting things to change once there is a marriage certificate. They may as well of had Santa Clause officiating and the Easter Bunny as the ring bearer. 

Now I’m not a believer in “soul mates” - I think that terminology brings about unrealistic expectations - but statements like you question, minus the “soul mates” and substituting “happily married couples” are true. 

No one is a perfect match. Perfection does not exist. People who are put on pedestals are bound to get knocked off of them. Compromise does exist though - and the couples that make it are the ones who went into their marriage knowing all the gory fault details of the other along with all the great stuff, and are ok with it. They have honestly weighed the pros and cons and chose to embrace differences and not challenge or push to change them. They didn’t ignore them, they addressed them, dealt with it - and came to terms with their partner as a whole. 

Bad times happen, it’s life - it’s messy. Married couples who enter into their life together who have a strong foundation, when things happen, bind together to make it through, those who have a weak foundation, start laying blame, blame turns to resentment, resentment turns to apathy…it’s easier to blame than to deal. Also due to the boom in social networking sites and electronic communication, it’s easier to talk to a stranger than your own spouse…leading to the inevitable…a perfect stranger is going to be a lot more understanding than your spouse will ever be 100% of the time because they are never told the whole truth. 

The other key to a healthy lasting marriage, is CONTINUED communication, assumptions can never be made on what your partner, thinks, feels, sees, hears, etc…every day some sort of “marital maintenance” needs to happen - from a simple hug and kiss to a conversation about an issue (there is ALWAYS going to be something). Far too many people end up on auto pilot and think everything is just fine, just because there isn’t a fight about something brewing. They exist between disagreements that never truly get resolved. 

Most people who are getting divorced, once the raw emotion isn’t ruling the show, if they sit down and really analyze their relationship they can figure out where it took it’s turn for the worst. However recognizing it instead of preventing it in the first place, doesn’t lend to being resentful of the spouse that just can’t live like that anymore and doesn’t want to try….they have the right to divorce. Marriage shouldn’t feel like a prison to one or both of the people in it - that isn’t a marriage - and you shouldn’t be forced to stay somewhere you don’t want to. 





by spaznskitz  7745 Posts 

Posted on 6/5/2009 3:39 PM
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Comments for "In response to a question posed to me by Heartbrokepicker...."  (72) (You must be logged in to answer)




I'm lurking. As a mod I could only suggest and the last argument I stepped in front of was going to get out of control real fast. So I stepped between them and drew her attention away from what she was raging about. Was she right? Probably, but the way they were going about it was wrong. It only involved three of us.

I had replies on my wall telling me I seemed to fuel it. Bullshit. If I hadn't stepped in you all would still be talking about the language on that one. I was polite and firm and reported it to whoever was suppose to be in charge. To this day I'm not exactly sure who or if that person exsists.

Then I get a form mail on my wall stating what D360 is about and that membership could be revoked. It was something along those lines. And I had asked twice what I did wrong to get that letter. As a mod who is a volunteer that was like a slap in the face. Telling the whole site that technically we as mods are useless. Just figure heads to look like we do something.

If I'm not appreciated in the least little bit ( and I'm not used to having a lot of attention), have no direction and feel I am treated differently as a mod what was the point of being here. Since no one has ever asked my feeling about anything  I am telling you how that letter from D360 and the replies on my wall made me feel. I am entitled to my feelings and perceptions. That is why I left.
by trisha9054   4967 Posts
Posted on 6/7/2009 12:14 PM
8





Well-  I hope that all are now happy- We had a tender hearted , knowledgeable person( I should say that this now makes 3 mods that are taking a break- including ME!) that you have offended and hurt. I really don't know wth is going on with this site that everyone feels they have to attack us.
We are not paid to blog or post- we care- and try to help. FOR the past few months it has been nothing but childish attacks..So I -like Spaz and Trisha- am taking a break. I will lurk and reply to emails - and wall posts to me- etc..but am now taking a hiatus.
You have no clue - what it is like being on this end.To lay your heart on the line to help people and to receive what we do.
This is absolutely ridiculous-
You really need to stop attacking out of hurt and anger. As my momma used to say- DON"T BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YA! So don't attack the ones that are trying to help ya!

by mtnvly   3539 Posts
Posted on 6/7/2009 9:39 AM
5





Lenn, I just want to say. I work very closely with doctors and trust me I have heard and seen their frustration when they are unable to help cure a patient. They would love to see someone cured of diabetes or cancer.
Remember they have family they love that get very ill. I also worked with a doctor who got cancer trust me she would have given her right arm for a cure. She died Lenn, of the very same thing that she tried to help her patients with. Her death was one of the quickest I have seen from breast cancer. She left two baby's behind.
So no doctor I know is vested in keeping you sick or anyone else. If they could find a cure they would be millionaires. But being a doctor is not all about money it is about making you well.
by sjg   1772 Posts
Posted on 6/7/2009 6:43 AM
0





Heart I am sorry for your pain. I truly truly am but I just have to tell you the best advice I was given.
"SJG your divorce is going to happen wether you like it or not." "It just is I hear your pain." "Let me do my job and get yourself into counseling." Advise given from my attorney.
I did just what she told me.
Yes, heart I filed for divorce, but I was scared and running on emotion.
Heart your wife is not your child. You can't make her do anything. I hear what you want I understand. But heart you are stuck it is time to move out of the bargaining stage and go the next step. If on down the line she ever wants to get help she will. If you want to spend the rest of your life waiting for her to do so that will be your choice.
Heart I hear your frustration with your wife. You are looking out for your family.
Heart as much as this hurts you may have to take the advice of my attorney. Get and attorney let them do their job. Get yourself into counseling for you not in the hopes if you do your wife will come. Do this for you. You are the only person you can control.
I know this may sound harsh but I have been where you are. Running scared.
by sjg   1772 Posts
Posted on 6/7/2009 6:34 AM
0





Krislyn you are the perfect example of why psychology students are not allowed to counsel. You have enough knowledge to be dangerous. Also before you go out on your own you will have to work under a doctor. If you can't control your emotions here how will you ever do so in real life. Also if a psychologist has never been divorced or almost divorced does that make them less than?
I think if your professor saw this he/she would cringe. I know I would. Don't practice something that you are not completely trained in. 
Want to debate an issue fine but you showed how immature you are by getting you bloomers in a bunch and making a blog on I am leaving.
I wonder what will happen when a client argues with you that you just don't understand. Will you grab out your book and say "I am right it says so on page 222 in paragraph 2"

by sjg   1772 Posts
Posted on 6/7/2009 6:12 AM
1





Lenn, out of curiosity, why do you feel "I'd really understand" social workers?
by Steve315   43 Posts
Posted on 6/6/2009 10:54 PM
0





Steve, I'm not going to lecture you on who provides cures or the research structure of the medical field.  I'll give you one you'll really understand--how about social workers?  You going to tell a social worker to shut up when they offer parenting advice because if everyone was a great parent, they'd be out of work?  It's the same thing.  Don't defend a stupid statement. 

by lenn   2653 Posts
Posted on 6/6/2009 8:11 PM
0





Oh for hells sake

the fact I didn't disclose the fact to the world that I once came close to divorce doesn't, in any way form or fashion make me guilty of professing "to be something different than you are"

 

Now if I were an elephant running around in a rhino suit and then suddenly whipped off my costume - THEN I'd be guilty of not being who I am.

 

The mere fact I choose to keep the details of my almost divorce situation to myself doesn't change who I am one iota. I'm not here to be comforted or felt for or gain help for it - it's past - it's fixed - we recovered - life is good. I learned a lot. I shouldn't HAVE to disclose it for my thoughts and opinions & views to be any less credible than any one of yours are.

 

What you and Krislyn continually seemed to ignore was the fact that this was just a long answer to a question ONE person posted to me - so my answer was written for ONE person. I don't HAVE to write an answer to someone in a manner that would apply to everyone if I choose not to. God forbid I omitted a word that would make it less absolute & global so that it would satisfy your situation. Or for Krislyns sake made it more educational and less "broad".

When I have to repeat myself 3 or more times on that fact, yeah - I'm gonna get a 'tude. deal with it, or better yet, don't engage me further. 

Further to my sarcasm & the like - you make it sound like that's all I ever do - in my 6000+ posts to the site I've whipped out my claws maybe a dozen times at most. Sue me. I'm human, people will rub me the wrong way at the wrong time. However, like I told you on your wall - there are quite a few people who I counsel off site for details they choose not to disclose to the world - if I give them a bit more grief on the board, and they aren't saying boo about it - neither should you.

And I really don't care if you don't like the fact I called you a jackass, you never disclosed you weren't one previously.

by spaznskitz   7745 Posts
Posted on 6/6/2009 2:15 PM
0





Spaz's quote for those who missed it:
"My husband and I have divorce papers that were drawn up several years ago and we split for a short time, those papers sit in a drawer as testiment to what we almost did and recovered from - so for you to DARE to assume I have no experience in divorce personally just because I choose not to talk about it makes you a total jackass in my opinion."

Everybody here is disclosing feelings that aren't easy and I feel shows a lot of strength to reveal.  Is it my fault that you professed to be something different than you are?

It's your right to choose what you want and don't want to talk about, but if you choose to omit such an important aspect of your life and marriage, you need to expect a wrong assumption.  Calling me a jackass for it was immature.  I didn't get personal.


by Steve315   43 Posts
Posted on 6/6/2009 12:50 PM
0





Okay DeliaM,

So she's allowed to insult me for making a point, yet when I do it I'm wrong? Oh and by the way, when I woman I have never met calls me sweetheart in a condescending manner, I will take it as such. Maybe you should read the entire post that was filled with subtle and not so subtle digs. FYI, I am from the south. I let little old men who don't know any different call me little lady, but when someone does it to try and put me in my place, it will get called upon as such. She took a comment I made and began to personally attack me. Only after getting slapped at a few times did I respond to it. Stupid Kris, defending herself. Bad Kris.

Again, FYI. I did say that. I tried to be bigger and give her the credit she apparently expects. My only comment was that I thought she was being to broadbased. And I got slapped at again. That I saw what she was trying to do. But nope, even posting an agreement to her original was ignored. So she could make innuendoes on my schooling, slapping at me for still being married, etc. What-the-fing-ever. 

Steve, I don't care what anyone says, I think you hit it out of the park. And I've seen plenty of cases where she has been condescending, giving that all self important tough love, although from where I sat, I saw little love. Just a great deal of judgment.

Oh and apparently it's all your fault now. Shame on you. :)

But I can say from this point now....I am done with this post. I will not look at it, respond to it, or give a flying flicka to it. So say whatever you want.

HBP, again, I am sorry for you thinking you shouldn't have asked. If you wanted guidence from Spaz and she helped you, I am glad. I send you hope, happiness, and love.
by krislyn   102 Posts
Posted on 6/6/2009 11:22 AM
0





Well steve, thanks to you, this site won't have my "legal expertise" or any other insight I might have for a while...hope you are proud of yourself for that.

 

My husband and I have divorce papers that were drawn up several years ago and we split for a short time, those papers sit in a drawer as testiment to what we almost did and recovered from - so for you to DARE to assume I have no experience in divorce personally just because I choose not to talk about it makes you a total jackass in my opinion.

Delia didn't blow it out of proportion - it was EXACTLY what you said - go to your legal corner and stay there....

wrong time to treat me like I'm not a human being.

by spaznskitz   7745 Posts
Posted on 6/6/2009 10:52 AM
0





Ok, one more post cuz this was my conversation with you I started....then I'm taking a hiatus for a while from here...

She is who she is, and she doesn't have to change if she doesn't want to, for you or for anyone else. You can't expect her to try just because it will make you happy and it is what you want. I get you reasoning to it - and for some people it makes logical sense....however she grew up in a long line of dysfunction...and as much as you want to be her knight in shining armor rescuing her from that evil realm...you have to come to terms if she decides she doesn't want to jump on your horse, she doesn't have to.

 

For some people, odd as it may seem, dysfuction is comfortable - especially when it is all they really know.

 

You might have to be the one to move on to a healthy relationship to help your kids learn about them...

by spaznskitz   7745 Posts
Posted on 6/6/2009 10:45 AM
1





Lenn, that's all I'm saying. State something like "the vast majority" instead of a label for all. As for the sarcasm, it wasn't called for and doesn't make a lot of sense considering scientists find cures and not doctors.

Delia, you're blowing what I said way out of proportion. I never said she didn't have a right. Of course she has a right. It's a free country. I just feel that comments from a family law attorney about marriage counseling should be taken with a grain of salt. My point is also that emotions are OK for people going through this and to be knocked by someone who makes a living by taking her emotions out of the equation isn't right. Sometimes it's necessary to be tough but more often than not people on here are just trying to vent and a little sensitivity is needed. I haven't been on here as much as many but I've seen enough to know that Spaz isn't sensitive.

This is an online version of a divorce support group, or at least that what I think the objective is. I have an interesting question that would love answers because I think this is a good poll. If you were going to start going to divorce support group meetings, would you want to share your feelings just among others that are going or have gone through it too or also to an individual who is a family law attorney who is going to judge every emotion that's displayed? I think bringing in an attorney as a guest speaker one week would be awesome, but who would want one there every week analyzing every comment? Would it alter your comfort level and would you speak your mind as freely?

As for ability as an attorney, I have nothing but respect for Spaz. I've read her legal advice to mine and others and it's obvious that she is top-notch. I think the site is lucky to have her services. I just feel that service often goes into other areas where it doesn't work.

Just an opinion.
by Steve315   43 Posts
Posted on 6/6/2009 10:45 AM
0





I guess my thing is if she cant make the changes she needs to make to be able to make things work ith me, then when is she doing to make the changes in herself to make things work for someone else. One of the reasons we felt apart was she never let me know what was wrong. So my poinnt is if she cant make those changes now, ie telling me what her problems are, then she is going to keep on repeating the same thingover and over again. Why not try and make it work with someone ou already know instead of someone you dont know? Otherwise she'll never have a happy relationship and our kids will grow never know or seeing how to make a marriage work
by Heartbrokepicker   418 Posts
Posted on 6/6/2009 10:26 AM
0





'mail'? ugh ... = nail

*sigh* freakin' damn typos...and now i'm outta smokes, i'm pissy.
by delia_M   2861 Posts
Posted on 6/6/2009 9:33 AM
0





*harrumph* Lenn, don't think I didn't catch that Pituitary remark...yer day's comin' buddy! *shakes a puny fist*

(kidding, love ya smexy)

Lenn rather hit the mail on the proverbial head for me in explanation of Spaz' initial statement: The marriage will end because of a personality trait that one person has at the very beginning that will lend itself to the predisposition to cut and run when things get tough instead of sticking it out and working on it until it is just painfully obvious that there is nothing more that can be done except endure what can end up being torturous and detrimental to all parties involved.

And my god, where does it say in the bylaws of Internet use that attorneys, doctors and other 'professionals' are not allowed to post their personal thoughts and opinions on anything? Why is Spaz limited to legal expertise? Excuse me, the woman does have a successful marriage, and likely has worked damn hard to make it so. I'd say that gives her extremely valuable advice to impart well beyond the legalities of divorce.

She has as much right to post as "the person behind the moderator avatar" as any one of us. So to ask why she is not limited to legal responses is an asinine question (to me). It shouldn't even BE asked. She has every right to speak her mind and her heart as freely as the rest of us do, professional and non professional alike. The same unspoken rules apply: don't like it, don't read it, but don't tell her she shouldn't post outside her area of expertise because I assure you, that realm is extremely far reaching, and that is what I have personally gained knowledge from.

She's not a know-it-all, and never once has she ever stated she believes she is. I've never seen her come across that way either. As for whatever her intentions are, nobody can read her mind just like you can't read mine. Try asking next time, instead of assuming and attacking based on that assumption. You might get a far better understanding.

ok so that was .04, anyway...
by delia_M   2861 Posts
Posted on 6/6/2009 9:28 AM
1





Here's my .02 for whatever it's worth:

Sorry Kris, I just don't see Spaz being condescending with the 'sweetheart' epithet, simply because I use those types of words daily in a multitude of ways, to a variety of people with whom I come in contact. Young, old, male, female, doesn't matter. I've always affectionately called it "a southern thang" but really it takes place any ol' where. It's all 'honey, darlin', dear, sweetie, sweetheart'. You get the idea. And I hate to say it, but that's not condescension, that's called a personality trait, and there ain't a blessed thing wrong with it...in *my* perception.

I dislike broad generalities as well as you do Kris - BUT - i do recognize what Spaz was hoping to do. She was offering comfort to someone in emotional turmoil. As shocking as it might seem to some, attorneys do have feelings, and as much as she has given of her time here, it's quite logical to assume she would be emotionally invested with a few of us, having spent some time writing back and forth, getting to know people. A body doesn't need to follow the letter of debating 'law' to write out a thoughtful, comforting post to someone who might be needing some encouragement at the worst time of their lives.

There are a few options here from the way I see it. You made your point, she made hers. She flat told you she was simply offering hope and encouragement, yet you still persisted, and then got insulting yourself. You, yourself made a sweeping judgment on her, accusing her of intentions that I just can't find anywhere in the entire thread of replies. You called her condescending even after she straight said that was never her intent.

 She's said several times it was not her intent, yet still you drove the screwdriver down further. You can either keep going (by yourself), or graciously say "I see where you were coming from, and even though I still disagree with some points, I respect what you were trying to accomplish."

Up to you.
by delia_M   2861 Posts
Posted on 6/6/2009 9:14 AM
0





Steve, if a marriage was going to fail, it was going to do so the day they got married.  Period.  Because one of the other of them is the type of person who won't seek help until it's too late, until their spouse's limit had been reached.  They were that type of person the day they got married. 

You point to an interesting case though, which is major biological change.  But those are abnormal--most marriages don't fail because someone's pituitary gland does or an iron rod tears away a significant portion of their frontal lobe.  So, perhaps Spaz should have said, "in the vast majority of marriages (including yours), if..."

Steve, I'm with you on Spaz's compromised position--I wouldn't listen to a thing she says about marriage.  I also don't listen to doctors--they have a vested interest in me remaining sick.  After all, if all disease was cured, they'd have to find a new line of work.
by lenn   2653 Posts
Posted on 6/6/2009 8:56 AM
0





NO HBP - don't EVER be sorry for asking anything...especially here.

I'm sorry I chose to post this as a blog and not on your e-mail and keep it a private conversation...I figured there would be a few that got where I was coming from and that you especially would due to what I know about your story. You appreciated it - that's all that matters. It was written for you anyway.

Apparently due to being an attorney, to some I'm nothing more than a legal advice bot - and I'm not allowed to have an opinion, or a thought unrelated to law that could be taken seriously. I have no other use than to quote statue - I couldn't possibly know anything else.

For people to think that my marriage has been all butterflies and lollipops and that I have never at any point been at the brink like so many of you...but actually survived to see another anniversary with a whole lot of hard work just goes to prove how narrow minded some are.

I'm married to a surgeon, I've followed him around the country for his job having to completely uproot my practice and start over three times, now facing a possible 4th...it's taxing. I have FIVE kids. Actually six if you count the son I buried who died in a tragic car accident a few years ago.

I don't know what you are going through Steve, Krislyn? You have no idea...you couldn't be further from the truth. You wonder where my attitude comes from...

I don't talk about my story because I choose rather to help all of you through yours, free of charge I might add...and the reason I do it is because I really DO know quite intimately what it is like to have to possibly face the dreaded D word. It's why I have a passion for what I do and a willingness to be here for people who have no idea where to turn.

So for those of you who want to just put me in the category of some money hungry cold hearted attorney who salivates at the thought of someone's relationship or family falling apart...in the words of Bart Simpson - Eat my shorts.
 
 


 

by spaznskitz   7745 Posts
Posted on 6/6/2009 12:42 AM
3





(Just read your longer blog)

HBP - I really, really hope that you and your wife can reconcile.  Just be there for her.  Don't force her into a corner.  When you back (push) someone in a corner, their instinct is to jump.  Be her quiet soul.  She'll come around.

My best wishes to you and your marriage.
by lifeinpurgatory   1830 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 11:27 PM
0





HBP - Hey you caused a stir here!  I am SO just kidding!! 

I think that in reading all the blogs you can get a bunch of different opinions on marriage/divorce and keep in mind the ones that you can relate to and dismiss the ones that don't.


by lifeinpurgatory   1830 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 11:10 PM
0





And my apologies HBP I did not mean hijacking your post.
by krislyn   102 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 11:10 PM
0





HBP,

I hope it works out for you, I really do. I wasn't afforded the opportunity to work on my marriage, he just up and left. We both came from broken families, I told myself I would not be like my parents. He chose to leave for several reasons, including what he has himself described as a midlife change.

Steve, thank you.
by krislyn   102 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 11:06 PM
0





Steve - That's the point I was trying to get at, thanks!   That things change, people change.

You can be married and  (unbeknownst to both) one spouse let's say is bi-polar.  Everything's fine then the mental disease starts to affect that person and the marriage is shaken.  Hopefully (like in my cousin's case) both can work with it.  Some people can't and get out.

Different circumstances for different people can cause divorces down the line without a clue in the beginning.
by lifeinpurgatory   1830 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 11:02 PM
0





Sorry I asked?
by Heartbrokepicker   418 Posts
Posted on 6/5/2009 10:56 PM
0







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