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In response to a question posed to me by Heartbrokepicker.... 


Heartbrokepicker asked me this on someone else's question....I wanted to address it, but I felt it needed it's own space so hence, this blog....

Spaz. I just have to wonder if there is anybody out there anymore that knows how to keep a marriage together. This couple here are split because of work and losing or never being in touch with one another. What the heck is it all about anymore? What about all these marriage councelors that say things like "Soul mates are not perfect for each other. Soul mates love each other with all their imperfections. Soul mates love each other no matter what". I think that divorce should be outlawed unless physical or emotional abuse is the cause and counceling should have to be mandatory in all states in order to get divorced. Its like. Oh Gee. We goofed. Sorry but see you later. Nothing personal. Somebody has to have a better plan. 

HBP - I do hear the pain in your post - I hear the pain in most of your posts actually. My heart goes out to you.

There are millions of marital "success stories" mine being one of them - but the reason you don't hear about them is because they are off being happily married - they have no reason to come to a message board to extol their joy. They are gathered out with other people, in equal success stories, while those of you who it didn't work out for, are also gathered together to share....unfortunately it's pain you have in common. 

No one marries with the intent to divorce. The vows that were taken, although for some this is hard to believe, weren't just them lying through their pearly whites. They meant every word at the time. The thing is, if your marriage is going to fail, it was going to the second you exchanged "I do's" you just didn't know it yet. 

I agree with mandatory counseling, but not before divorce - by then it's too late - the damage has already been done - no, counseling should be mandatory before you are allowed to say "I DO". 

I know you are still stuck on me saying how your marriage was doomed from when it first started so let me elaborate....

You go into marriage with the problems that are going to eventually break you, if they aren’t dealt with correctly & effectively from the get go. For a lot of couples, too many actually, red flags are practically slapping them in the face but for some reason, they choose to ignore them…since I’m not the type to do that I’m admittedly clueless as to why anyone would - other than the age old saying “love is blind”.  

People bring insecurities, addictions, unresolved past loves, fear of confrontation, anger issues, bad credit, poor money management “skills“, overly frugal money management “skills”, selfishness, too giving to the point of draining themselves emotionally, poor communication skills, secrets….insert more here as I could go on all day….into a marriage. Sometimes it is well known but ignored (red flag) sometimes, and the worst of it, well hidden only to rear it’s ugly head later. 

Far too many people gauge readiness to marry on feelings, and do not address the practical part of it. They go into it with the unrealistic expectation that love is enough. It isn’t. 

Before you marry, in order for it to work, you have got to be able to talk about the sticky stuff…money, religion, sex, politics, family, children, expectations, deal breakers, porn, insecurities, needs, you even have to talk about how you talk about stuff. 

You have to have survived a couple of arguments without resentment before getting married. You have to know how to argue effectively, mind you I said argue, not fight. They are two very different things. If you never argued before you married, how in the world do you know what to expect? Could your future spouse be an insult hurling beast, or someone who shuts down completely at the mere raise in tone? 

Most importantly, can you live with that for the rest of your life? Can you see yourself happy in the next 10 minutes? 10 months? 10 years? Did you honestly look that far into it before you got married? Really? 

And don’t get me started on those people that marry expecting things to change once there is a marriage certificate. They may as well of had Santa Clause officiating and the Easter Bunny as the ring bearer. 

Now I’m not a believer in “soul mates” - I think that terminology brings about unrealistic expectations - but statements like you question, minus the “soul mates” and substituting “happily married couples” are true. 

No one is a perfect match. Perfection does not exist. People who are put on pedestals are bound to get knocked off of them. Compromise does exist though - and the couples that make it are the ones who went into their marriage knowing all the gory fault details of the other along with all the great stuff, and are ok with it. They have honestly weighed the pros and cons and chose to embrace differences and not challenge or push to change them. They didn’t ignore them, they addressed them, dealt with it - and came to terms with their partner as a whole. 

Bad times happen, it’s life - it’s messy. Married couples who enter into their life together who have a strong foundation, when things happen, bind together to make it through, those who have a weak foundation, start laying blame, blame turns to resentment, resentment turns to apathy…it’s easier to blame than to deal. Also due to the boom in social networking sites and electronic communication, it’s easier to talk to a stranger than your own spouse…leading to the inevitable…a perfect stranger is going to be a lot more understanding than your spouse will ever be 100% of the time because they are never told the whole truth. 

The other key to a healthy lasting marriage, is CONTINUED communication, assumptions can never be made on what your partner, thinks, feels, sees, hears, etc…every day some sort of “marital maintenance” needs to happen - from a simple hug and kiss to a conversation about an issue (there is ALWAYS going to be something). Far too many people end up on auto pilot and think everything is just fine, just because there isn’t a fight about something brewing. They exist between disagreements that never truly get resolved. 

Most people who are getting divorced, once the raw emotion isn’t ruling the show, if they sit down and really analyze their relationship they can figure out where it took it’s turn for the worst. However recognizing it instead of preventing it in the first place, doesn’t lend to being resentful of the spouse that just can’t live like that anymore and doesn’t want to try….they have the right to divorce. Marriage shouldn’t feel like a prison to one or both of the people in it - that isn’t a marriage - and you shouldn’t be forced to stay somewhere you don’t want to. 





by spaznskitz  7745 Posts 

Posted on 6/5/2009 3:39 PM
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Comments for "In response to a question posed to me by Heartbrokepicker...."  (72) (You must be logged in to answer)




Dang... I wonder if this is what changed everything...?
by Lovemeknot   240 Posts
Posted on 9/22/2009 3:27 PM
0





Spaz,
I think you've been amazing in you assistance, insight and dedication the time you've been here on D.
I feel that the fact that you almost divorced yourself and ovecame that difficult time makes you even more qualified to speak in this forum. There are many here who wish to save their marriage and you have done that.
You have such experience and knowledge in this ugle monster that is separation/divorce and I thank you for sharing it.
by asim   775 Posts
Posted on 7/22/2009 1:14 PM
0





Hi Spaznskitz -

I am a relationship counselor (yes, i know it says financial counselor - it's a glitch, they're working on it). 

I am very proud of your committment to the folks on this site.  I am not a moderator, I offer advice when I feel I can add something of value. 

I totally agree with your post.  You have a great deal of insight and wisdom.  The folks here are lucky to have you as a willing volunteer. 

Blessings...
by Lisa Cannon   
Posted on 6/17/2009 2:17 AM
0





Spaz - I just happened to read this blog and the ensuing comments.

I think what you wrote is so wise & well-stated and I appreciate your advice very much. I always feel like I'm a bit smarter after I read something posted by you.

Thank you for all that you do.
by Sunflower2   294 Posts
Posted on 6/17/2009 12:17 AM
0





Wow, Spaz,  you really hit the nail on the head with this post.  Bullseye!!
by 2much42long   3031 Posts
Posted on 6/15/2009 11:33 PM
0





Flutterby, thanks for sharing your thoughts with me. Accepting what I cant change is very tough for me because I am a fixer, plus I'm not a quitter and that makes it doubly hard for me. Maybe I'll learn.
by Heartbrokepicker   418 Posts
Posted on 6/13/2009 9:17 PM
0





I'd like to make a comment to HBP and disregard all the other "bantering" on here.

My stbxh came to me in November saying he wanted to move out.  He has a lot of issues that he wanted to deal with and he thought it would be best for the family that he do it on his own.  He moved out in January.  We found out in February that he had been having an affair for 6 months.  My stbxh also suffers from sex addiction.  I found out about it 12 years into our marriage.  We've been married 22 years.  Every time he had an "episode" I stood by him.  As a result of several deaths in my family, my husband's sex addiction and other factors I spiraled downward with clinical depression.  I am in counseling and am dealing with the depression.  I have learned about different things I brought to the marriage that I could have done differently.  But, now that I'm learning what I may have done wrong my stbxh no longer wants to be married. 

I never gave up on him but he gave up on me.  I am learning alot about myself through counseling but it KILLS me that my stbxh doesn't want to "try".  And I can't make him.  I am learning, slowly, how to let go of things I can't control.  I'm becoming a stronger and better person for myself and my 2 daughters. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is focus on yourself and make yourself stronger.  Learn about what you brought to the marriage and maybe it will help with reconciling.  You can only change yourself.  Good luck.
by flutterby   829 Posts
Posted on 6/13/2009 10:09 AM
0





... GREAT post Ms. Spaz... btw.
by gemi   1064 Posts
Posted on 6/8/2009 6:55 PM
0





I'm gonna put ya all in time-out chairs... lol... and then we make nice and have ice cream... Vanilla raise your hands.... Chocolate?
Truly, really love you all!
(((X)))
by gemi   1064 Posts
Posted on 6/8/2009 6:53 PM
0





Well, since Steve is gone, I'll just post this to set the record straight--you can't fault me for failing to follow an argument when the existential qualifiers were dropped halfway through.

Plus, I have no idea what he's talking about in three-fourths of that post, but it's moot now.
by lenn   2653 Posts
Posted on 6/8/2009 6:42 PM
0





[sigh]

by Natalie   729 Posts
Posted on 6/8/2009 2:09 PM
0





We have been going to a counselor who is helping us get through the divorce process and is teaching us some tools to keep our communication open and to focus on our kids. But I have noticed that my stbx is doing the same thing he did when we went to counseling the first time.... taking what he wants and then ignoring the rest.
So both have to be completely open to the info.
Yes, if you had told me 22 years ago that I would let my marriage come to this.. I would have said you were a liar. But I had just as much to do with it and my stbx. For me there is just too much there. I can forgive but I can't forget. The attraction is not there, either. If I stayed with him I would have been faking my whole life. Is that what someone would want? I think I have sacrificed enough of myself.

by StacyMarie   34 Posts
Posted on 6/8/2009 10:38 AM
0





I think Spaz is AWESOME!  OMG!  The woman is a saint for giving FREE advice outside of her working hours!  I also think that sometimes we NEED that kick in the tush.  Yeah- I want people to mourn with me, cry with me, hug me.  But, I also want someone who will say- "Okay, enough, get up and go forward!"  I had a friend who was like that and it was great! 

Sometimes we NEED to take the emotion out of it.  If we all ruled with just emotion, the world would fall apart.
by Dactyl   2607 Posts
Posted on 6/8/2009 10:24 AM
2





We did the marriage councelling before we got married.  But,  because we had a kid already, the minister didn't push us to actually go through it like we should have.  Maybe because we DID have the kid, he should have pushed us even harder.  We also never argued.  He'd hide if I raised my voice.  The few times we got into it, he'd storm out the door and not deal with it. 

I saw all sorts of red flags, but chose to ignore them thinking, "Oh, we can deal with this..."  Well 16 years later (last Friday would have been my 16th wedding anniversary), I'm looking back saying- "Oh, yeah, I should have seen this coming." 

I'm coming out of this anger fog I was into so long and I'm seeing the good times and the tough times we faced.  We had some really rough years, but in the end, we never really learned how to deal with one another. 

Spaz- I applaud you on being such a good example to all of us here!  Thanks!
by Dactyl   2607 Posts
Posted on 6/8/2009 9:52 AM
1





Sjg....Thanks for the advice, but I don't need to engage in a war of words.  I could use big words (ones much larger than Lenn's) if I wanted to, but I don't.  Frankly, I feel people who use big words have an insecure need to try to show they are more intelligent than they really are.  It's also an attempt at intimidation.

Lenn...When did I say I don't trust marriage counselors?  I can't believe with all of the times you revisited my past posts that you missed the context but here it is.  I mentioned about family law attorneys talking about marriage counseling being too late and my argument was that I couldn't trust it because of the vested interest.  I then immediately said I wouldn't trust a marriage counselor either - meaning that IF there was one on here who made a statement along the lines of going to an attorney being a mistake that I'd also take that with a grain of salt.  In the examples I used, I didn't mention marriage counselors as to how they're different from attorneys.  I mentioned doctors, researchers, and social workers.  Perhaps when I mentioned social workers counseling that made you think I meant marriage counselors and as a result confused you.  If so, I apologize.

Now, for those who have stooped to calling me names and others who wish to go to that level, feel free.  But just a warning, it will fall on deaf ears.  I am leaving the site immediately after this post.  I don't have the time or desire to continue battling.  I see my opinions aren't welcome here, but that's OK.

I want to thank the people who gave me great advice and support, especially during some very dark days.  This site has some great people.

On a separate note, I am happy to report that I have found someone very special. Between my beautiful and special three-year-old boy and her, I am a very lucky guy. I hope all of you find the same happiness, if you haven't done so already.

All the best,
Steve
by Steve315   43 Posts
Posted on 6/8/2009 12:56 AM
0





Steve make a note to yourself. You don't want to go against lenn with a battle of words. He has got you hands down. Go read his post. Dear God him and Rob I have to get the dictionary out to understand them sometimes. Trust me they are great guys but when it comes to words...step back honey you ain't seen nothing yet.
Sorry lenn I did not read your post correct.

God forgive me I know there is nothing funny about this but I have the giggles.
Night D360 I'm glad we are friends

by sjg   1772 Posts
Posted on 6/7/2009 10:20 PM
0





Steve..first, don't be a moron--a parenthetical is a loose statment, and therefore quotations contained within a parenthetical are paraphrases.

Second, I don't even know where to begin with your last post.  "When doctors are treating patients, researchers are researching, [family law attorneys are litigating, marital counselors are counseling], and social workers are counseling, they ALREADY have the business.  They are making a living from it, that IS their job."  [Author's note: looky there--no distinction.  So, given that there's no distinction, whatever will your conclusion be?!?!?" 

It'll be this: "Marriage counseling in many cases prevent family law attorneys from getting their business in the first place."  Wait a goddam sec.  I thought you also didn't trust marriage counselors?!?!?  I thought your brilliant notion was that as long as an individual profited from helping the rest of humanity negotiate its broken nature, they were not to be trusted.  Go back and read your words.  If you didn't mean them, correct them. 

I don't need to coat my posts in sarcasm, but I'll mock the fuck out of you if you are eminently mock-worthy.  Cheers.
by lenn   2653 Posts
Posted on 6/7/2009 9:41 PM
5





Sjg...I didn't assume anything.  That's why my comments were in the form of questions.  If I was assuming, I would have made claims instead of asking.

Lenn...You're on the right track with what I mean, but just a tip.  If you are going to paraphrase, don't put it the line in quotation marks because quotations are reserved for exact quotes.  I never used the word blocking so your "divorce attorneys have a vested interest in blocking reconciliation" line misquotes me.  Now, I wasn't going to bother discrediting your argument but since you keep pushing the issue, your doctors and social workers analogies make no sense. When doctors are treating patients, researchers are researching, and social workers are counseling, they ALREADY have the business.  They are making a living from it, that IS their job. Marriage counseling in many cases prevent family law attorneys from getting their business in the first place.

I don't need to coat my posts with sarcasm. My arguments are strong enough on their own.

Spaz...I am extremely sorry that you tragically lost your first born child.
by Steve315   43 Posts
Posted on 6/7/2009 9:30 PM
0





Steve: Because it's a simple case.  The relationship between practicing doctors and research doctors seems a bit to complex for you to grasp.

SJG:  That was written with tongue firmly planted in cheek.  It was rhetorical reductio ad abusrdum against Steve's incredibly stupid argument of why Spaz's marital counsel should be ignored.  I was arguing from the clearly absurd ("Dr.'s have a vested interested in keeping me sick") to the slightly (only slightly) less absurd statement made by Steve ("divorce attorneys have a vested interest in blocking reconciliation").  But I get why you didn't see that.  After I wrote it, I realized I may not have used nearly enough sarcasm.  But yeah, I love doctors, and I love Spaz.
by lenn   2653 Posts
Posted on 6/7/2009 8:16 PM
0





Krislyn - You know that feeling you get when you're alone, breaking up, or getting a divorce and one of your friends have, lets say, a bridal or baby shower?  You're happy for them, but inside miserable w/your life in comparison?

I think that's why the "i've moved on" or "have a great life now" types of blogs get fewer comments (not to say they're not being read).   It's hard to relate to someone who's there already (not to say not happy for you),  just on a dif level.

That and the fact that the blogs with "I can't deal with this" or "i'm gonna explode" gets more comments because everybody is trying to give support to that person who, at the moment, seems to need more attention/support.

Everyone - I've read all the back and forth blogs (both blogs).   I am sorry to see anyone who still needs support go.
 
In my short time here I've been fortunate to have been given more support thru this computer and the giving people here than anyone else anywhere.  I've cried on here, yelled on here, gotten awesome legal/tax advice, even chuckled a time or two here. 

I read some blogs and try to say a kind word or two and maybe offer some life experience words as has been done to me.

I wish all of us peace and happiness in our lives.
by lifeinpurgatory   1830 Posts
Posted on 6/7/2009 6:02 PM
2





Krislyn (con't) If I had blogged this as "my thoughts on why divorce happens" - it would be up for the kind of debate you brought to it, but it wasn't - and you took away from the point that was trying to be made and for that I got pissed and you got to feel it.

Now as for your lack of understanding as to why your "healing" posts get such little response - 99% of the people here aren't ready to hear those kinds of things - for most, it's impossible to fathom a future when they are still clinging desperately to their past. Reading things like that might as well be in a foreign language because it is something they aren't ready to process yet. I'm sure things you have said will stick in their minds and actually hit them later - when the time is right - and one major thing about this board - no written response by no means means it is unread. So that is not something that should discourage you.

As to why a psychologist isn't on here - any of the ones I know won't do things without being paid. They of all people know about job burnout and work to avoid it - I, out of some odd sense of responsibility to this place where I get no compensation, only a handful of deeply appreciated thank you's, stay up later than I should some nights, I'll order pizza for the family instead of cooking dinner if there is a lot going on here, my free time - is here. So, in essence, I rarely if ever give myself time off. Even on my self imposed break I'm here now...try to find a psych who will do for this site what I do - you won't...they know better. The one's I've talked to aren't even interested in advertising - they don't want a larger client base.

To those of you who supported me, thank you, I appreciate it to the core. Now I am going to try to take at the very least 24 continuous hours away from this place to recharge my drained batteries....so enough with the bickering already.





by spaznskitz   7745 Posts
Posted on 6/7/2009 5:13 PM
6





Keep this bullshit up and I will delete this blog and everything along with it....

considering the fact that 30 people thus far have given it a good post status - apparently I'm not as off base as a couple of you would like to ensure everyone knows you think I am.

Steve - as for disclosure - if you have as you put it, "no respect" for people who don't open up - then you might as well leave the forum as well. I challenge you to find one single person on this forum who has blurted out every minute detail about their life, their situation, their feelings. I don't think even you can say you have put your entire self out here.

If you don't want to respect me FINE - however bear in mind there are no rules here saying that to be a respected member you must air your life for the world to read. You aren't married to these people - THEY DON'T OWE YOU ANYTHING. Including disclosure.

I purposely did not put out to the world about my almost divorce for two reasons, one very personal and one very general. The personal - is it was and always will be directly tied to the tragic & sudden senseless loss of my first born child and I choose not to have that constant reminder by having to bring up my history to satisfy anyone's much less one person's requirement for my advice to be legitimate in their eyes. Second, I'm not here for support - I don't need to discuss my almost divorce - I'm here to help others. The mere fact I've dealt with thousands of divorces over the past 20+ years is enough for 99% of the people here to appreciate my insight. My almost divorce is moot in comparison.

Krislyn - Telling me what I should have written based on your textbook says is not agreeing with me. If it was a paper on the subject of divorce, yes, you would be 100% correct that it was "too broadbased". However, and I don't know how many times I have to say this, it was an answer to a question based on the facts surrounding HBP. For THAT I was spot on - and he even said so.

cont
by spaznskitz   7745 Posts
Posted on 6/7/2009 4:57 PM
2





Steve you ask me a question and then assume you know my answer. Please don't assume you know what I will say. You know what they say about assuming you make an ass out of you and me.
So if you really want to know what I think ask me without assuming and I will give you an aswer.
But one thing you need to know about me is that I am honest to a fault. Not one of my good points.
by sjg   1772 Posts
Posted on 6/7/2009 4:01 PM
0





I totally agree Krislyn.  Sig, are the others immature for leaving also?  Are the ones taking a break immature in your estimation?  Why is it not OK for Krislyn to practice what she's learning if everyone else on here does the same thing, most with much less knowledge?

 

Personally, I have no respect for anyone on here who passes judgment on someone's situation if they aren't going to open up themselves. To me, that shows a major lack of integrity and cowardice.  I'm not naming any names.  The guilty parties will rise to the surface when they come out following this post, bashing me.

However, before bashing me for that statement, I ask you to think seriously about it.  Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this site supposed to be an online version of a divorce support group?  I thought it was.  If I'm wrong, then disregard what I'm saying and I'm the one at fault for thinking this site was designed to be something it's not.  But if I'm right, please answer this.  If you went to a support group meeting, at a local church let's say, and there was an individual there who provided feedback, passed judgment, jumped to non-based conclusions, but wouldn't say anything about their situation, would it bother you? It would bother me.

 

by Steve315   43 Posts
Posted on 6/7/2009 1:42 PM
2





I said I wasn't going to respond to this again. Yes, I too wavered. I would like to bring up some points very quickly because I am being accused of being insulting, and in one case getting my panties in a wad. Firstly, read my first response. I was agreeing with her. Bringing up points from my psychology text to agree. My next response was an OPINION. We are all allowed to have one, or so I thought. I was then personally reprimanded for disagreeing. My next post I again tried to explain my position, without being catty and rude. I was given patronizing comments by an individual who took umbrage to my voicing my opinion on an open forum. This site was about helping people. I have heard in several posts that you will have different opinions from different people. And I fully agree. I had an opinion, and for my trouble, was blasted for it.  No one person's opinions are more important or revelent than someone else's. Yet that was this whole study of ridiculousness has become. I did not get pissy. I did not get rude. I pride myself on treating others with respect. And after being slapped at several times, yes I did get my panties in a wad. And even then, I did it with respect. If you want to pass judgment on me for it. Feel free. It took me several posts before my panties went into wad mode. But that is ignored.

sjg, I responded to your other post on my blog. I never said I was an expert. I spent ONE post using what I have learned. And it was agreeing with what she had discussed! It was not an argument against her stand. It was an agreement using another aspect. I then, stated an opinion of why I thought she was being too general. I wonder had I not disagreed, would I have gotten kudos for adding that perspective? I did not belabor it screaming at the top of my lungs that I was right. I gave kudos, but all that was ignored to take me to task for voicing my own opinion.
by krislyn   102 Posts
Posted on 6/7/2009 1:12 PM
3







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